Olympia Shuttle

[The Raven]

There will only be an Olympia service during "major" events. The report doesn't define what a major event is, but it doesn't sound like they will happen very often.

Even when there is a service, it will only start at 1000 and run every 30 minutes. I predict that the special services will be poorly advertised so they have an excuse to shut it completely in a years time due to lack of usage.

With kensingto (olympia) being served by the london overground, lets hope service on district is cancelled.

Also, may get a lot More races against teams of competators like the up and coming Matt vs Sam!

[hopeful traveller]

but someone should write to them officially, and ask if attempts can now be made at a weekend (i.e. Saturday) otherwise it's restricted to event days only. well, either that or perhaps a Heathrow start to somehow get it in in the morning. hang on, is Cannon Street still open on a Saturday now? if not, then it can't.

what would be really interesting is if Guinness saw this a significant network/map change, and 'reset' the record. they probably won't though - if they wouldn't even consider a new station (Wood Lane) a reset [ridiculous] then a station becoming limited opening probably won't.

hmm. i wonder how fast the record could be if you didn't have to do Olympia & Mill HIll East. And Hainault loop trains ran every 10 minutes instead ...

But you'd still be at a disadvantage due to less frequent trains on a Saturday.

[Sam]

As I have already said though, it's the same situation as in the New York subway so Guinness will just rule that it has to be visited when it is open because it CAN be visited!!

It's not an ideal situation but I really don't see any differences from New York!

[Nigel]

... which is why someone should write to Guinness and explain all this. What Olympia will become is not like Shoreditch. You didn't have to look up to see if Shoreditch was running that day - it was always running, just at limited times. But I doubt that Guinness care that much, and we'll have a hard time convincing them. So at the moment, the best hope (i think) is that one of the two early morning services timing coincides nicely with a Heathrow Start at somepoint, and that's the first part of your day pretty much fixed!

I would be happy to contact Guinness and ask for a ruling, but I'm not sure if there is a clear consensus on this forum on what it should be. I guess the danger of just putting the facts neutrally to Guinness, without suggesting what the outcome should be, is that that may come up with something arbitrary and illogical. That said, personally, I agree with Sam that I don't think there is much option other than to do Olympia when services are running. I suppose we should check though whether this change in service pattern would 'reset' the record.

Side thread : Three out of the last attempts I've done have involved a White City/Wood Lane or Wood Lane/White City run. Being able to do that makes a connection that obviously wasn't possible before, and IMHO a time saving OF ten minutes, thus a new way of going quicker than the record time. Hence, it was a big enough change to warrant a reset. It's extremely poor that Guinness didn't recognise this -they just thought "oh, new intermediate station, no effect" without considering the new connection.

Sorry to labour this point, and to be fair to Guinness (I didn't think I would say that), I'm not sure how they would have reset the record in this instance. Geoff says that opening Wood Lane saves 10 minutes, Kevin says that it adds 10 minutes to his route. Both of these are consequential efects of the change, rather than the immediate effect of stopping at Wood Lane. OK, suppose they had 'reset' the record which at the time stood at 17:12:43 (Andi & Steven Karahan). Adopting Geoff''s argument, then it should have been 'reset' to 17:02:43, which in practice would have made no difference as the record was not broken again until Sam did so in December 2009 in 17:02:23. Adopting Kevin's argument, if it were 'reset' to 17:22:43, then he would have briefly retaken the record on Children in Need day 2009.
The trouble with these arguments based on consequential effects is where do you draw the line? For instance, timetable changes can have bigger conequences (particularly in the NW corner). Even the minor changes to the Jubilee line this September (with more trains running through to Stanmore now that the third platform has opened) made a signifcant consequential improvement on paper to one of my routes.
Personally, I think records should only be reset when there is an immediate direct effect from a reconfiguration of the network. All other changes are just part of the mix of tube challenging, and if they can be exploited by clever planning, good luck to whoever works this out.

[RichieG]

Sorry to labour this point, and to be fair to Guinness (I didn't think I would say that), I'm not sure how they would have reset the record in this instance. Geoff says that opening Wood Lane saves 10 minutes, Kevin says that it adds 10 minutes to his route. Both of these are consequential efects of the change, rather than the immediate effect of stopping at Wood Lane. OK, suppose they had 'reset' the record which at the time stood at 17:12:43 (Andi & Steven Karahan). Adopting Geoff''s argument, then it should have been 'reset' to 17:02:43, which in practice would have made no difference as the record was not broken again until Sam did so in December 2009 in 17:02:23. Adopting Kevin's argument, if it were 'reset' to 17:22:43, then he would have briefly retaken the record on Children in Need day 2009.

. . .

Personally, I think records should only be reset when there is an immediate direct effect from a reconfiguration of the network. All other changes are just part of the mix of tube challenging, and if they can be exploited by clever planning, good luck to whoever works this out.

Being 'reset' doesn't mean that they change the time - it means that on one day, the record is 17:12.43 for 269 stations, the next day it's 270 stations and the first person to do the complete network (even if they take four weeks) is the record holder. I see Guinness' point here though, and my personal thought is that although they probably should have reset the record when Wood Lane opened, it is an intermediate station on a line, so can see why they didn't, and it doesn't really matter now as another 45 minutes has been cut from the record anyway.

I think the next reset are both in hypothetical situations... one should the Croxley link happen, the other should TfL stop underground services to Olympia (or there's another change that TfL have lined up for the Underground).

[tubeguru]

... which is why someone should write to Guinness and explain all this. What Olympia will become is not like Shoreditch. You didn't have to look up to see if Shoreditch was running that day - it was always running, just at limited times. But I doubt that Guinness care that much, and we'll have a hard time convincing them. So at the moment, the best hope (i think) is that one of the two early morning services timing coincides nicely with a Heathrow Start at somepoint, and that's the first part of your day pretty much fixed!

I would be happy to contact Guinness and ask for a ruling, but I'm not sure if there is a clear consensus on this forum on what it should be

Does there HAVE to be a consensus on the forum? Whilst that would imply forum solidarity, when it comes to the challenge itself we're all individuals (or individual groups).

Geoff's last couple of posts imply that he wants an answer to this, but can't be arsed to write to Guinness himself, so is hinting that someone else should do it. If I gave a shit, I would have done it myself by now without making mention of it in public. We don't have to have permission from anyone else or do things by committee round here when it comes to tube challenging.

It's all very well being part of a group of people who enjoy doing this, but remember that you are all individuals when it comes to route planning, doing the run itself and gaining any advantage you can. It's fascinating how, over the last five years or so the competitive element of this has been eroded in the name of "the tube challenging community".

Am I the only person who's noticed this?

[Nigel]

Does there HAVE to be a consensus on the forum? Whilst that would imply forum solidarity, when it comes to the challenge itself we're all individuals (or individual groups).

No of course there doesn't have to be a consensus, but perhaps I have too little faith in Guinness's decision making abilities these days, and have a suspiscion if they are just asked neutrally what will happen after December there is a fair chance they will come up with something impossibly illogical. The current rule pack they sent me earlier in the year is already riddled with inconsistencies about record keeping, which stations have to be visited, etc. If there were a consensus about what should happen it would be safer to suggest that to Guinness and see if they agree, rather than leave it entirely up to them to make something up.

[palkanetoijala31]

I had my 2 cents to this discussion.

Point 1 270 reset of the record (therotical) Wood Lane opened on October 12th 2008 so who was the 1st person to set a completed 270 time and then how many people actually beat that time until december 4th 2009 regardless of whether people actually believe the interchange actually saves them anything or not it doesnt save me any cos i never used it.

point 2 reset of the record for ken o (therotical) Its interesting that the main person asking for this reset Geoff actually should draw parallels to the Heathrow t4 closure.Now im sure that t4 being closed made a right headache for people trying to beat your record for 2 years because it had to be visited and its interesting that because you held the record then you obviously were silent for a change because it made it harder for people to break it.

now regarding Ken O me and steveo obviously wont be asking for a change and im sure you can appreciate the reasons why so we wont be writing to Guinness it just makes it harder for you lot now if you want to write to Guinness i think Geoff you should do it yourself but it be a bit hypocritical giving the point above after all its a challenge for you and would give you more satisfaction doing it the hard way instead of the easy way (reset of the record) out me thinks.

Also it doesnt actually stop you visiting Ken O there will still be trains or using the 1st Ken O start of the day giving tubeguru comment some thought i actually agree with him it seems there are 3 main teams plus others less back up and 2 of them are highly competitive and desperately need this record for their egos i presume. I hope for another Marc Gawley to come along then there will be a cat amongst the pigeons!

[hopeful traveller]

When does this come into force?

[Nigel]

When does this come into force?

11 December 2011

[hopeful traveller]

When does this come into force?

11 December 2011

Are you sure?

[Sam]

Yes. Read the press release that's on TfLs website! Journey planner is never updated that quickly so will still show old times.

[nozzacook]

Just my opinion we should wait for Ken Olympia service to change. It has already been pointed out that it still shows on journey planner for after the 11th Dec. If Guinness were to check as we have this will just muddy the water. Guinness will then come up with some ruling that no one wants. I say wait for it to happen first then ask for clarification.

[greatkingrat]

I'm not sure why anything has to be done. The new Olympia service may be annoying and inconvenient but that's just life.

[palkanetoijala31]

Yes, I have spoken to someone at LU who have confirmed new timetables for the second Sunday in December. btw: new leaf-fall timetables also start this weekend by the way on the Met, which will make those early morning connections more tricky!

What I'm looking for is people's thoughts on what should be done - yes, a concensus if you like - as Guinness's repuation for making sensible decisions is not something i would rely on. (Wood Lane may be a 'intermediate' station, but it's one that opens up a really good connection opportunity, and is a big enough change to warrant a rest, until [say] a true intermediate station with no connection possibilities)

When I caught up with Marc Gawley last week, even he was telling me of the hassles he'd had with Guinness when getting his record verfified - apparantly, someone in the USA ratifies now - not someone based in London! And they shipped across some - but not all - of his evidence from here to there which really delayed the process. Just sounds a bit tardy to me - and doesn't fill me with confidence. I'm still appalled abuot the record time that was set on a Saturday that was rejected, and that wasn't even my attempt.

It all comes down to the fact (as always) that Guinness aren't as obviously passionate about this as those of us on the forum, and will most likely see it as a black and white matter, with nothing inbetween, and thus Ken O will be a can of worms. It's not as if it's going FROM a reduced service TO a full service, but the other way round - much more tricky.

And i've checked, and I cant' see anywhere in the thread above where i've asked for a reset or suggested that this is what i want to happen. Am just trying (as always) to have a sensible and friendly discussion on it, without it turning into a bitching match. Hey Neil! I may be agreeing with you there...

or are you just sucking up to the moderator