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Crossrail blurs the waters somewhat about what separate stations count as.

Using Liverpool Street as an example, I propose the following, for an R15 round. This is post-the linking up of Crossrail, meaning no Crossrail services serve the high level platforms.

LU only roynd: You must visit Liverpool Street on the Central, H&C, Metropolitan or Circle lines.

LU and Elizabeth Line round: You must visit on any LU line OR the Elizabeth Line, but not any National Rail services from the main concourse

LU and National Rail round- A visit by any London Underground or National Rail service is acceptable.

I see it as one station now, as you now have a National Rail service (the Elizabeth Line being part of National Rail) behind the LU station gateline. There are other examples of stations where the same mode can be found behind multiple gatelines- this doesn't mean they are two stations now. Kew Gardens has separate gate lines for each platform for example.

At Paddington, though, I believe the Elizabeth Line station is not accessible from behind the Tube gateline. In that case, there remains three stations-the National Rail one (including the Elizabeth Line) and both tube stations.

Any flaws in my thinking?

tractakid wrote: ↑12 Jun 2022, 12:42
At Paddington, though, I believe the Elizabeth Line station is not accessible from behind the Tube gateline. In that case, there remains three stations-the National Rail one (including the Elizabeth Line) and both tube stations.

Any flaws in my thinking?

There is step free access from the Bakerloo line to the Elizabeth line at Paddington (via lifts and a very long tunnel). Not sure how the new Bakerloo line ticket hall will affect this.

I think it may actually be best to forget about gatelines and say that if you can get between platforms without leaving the station, it is all one station. So Paddington would just be 1 station, while Canary Wharf would be 3 stations (LU / DLR / EL).

Even though you can get from Moorgate to Liverpool Street without leaving the station, I think they should remain 2 stations as they have different names (same as Bank/Monument).

For the Elizabeth line stations like Farringdon and Liverpool Street which have exits at other stations (Barbican and Moorgate respectively) then the Bank / Monument version works well. i.e. the station name is the one on the big signs at platform level, even if you can walk to a differently named station without leaving the station complex.

Canary Wharf is quite obviously a separate station and will be added separately.

Once all of the Elizabeth line trains head through the core from November then I think the following:

At Liverpool Street add the 'Elizabeth line' flag to the existing "Liverpool Street (LU)" [low level] entry, but without the 'National Rail' flag in the database and rename this to "Liverpool Street (LU/XR). The existing "Liverpool Street (LO / NR)" [high level] entry remains as it is today possibly with a "not XR" label added to its name and would not gain the 'Elizabeth line' flag in the database.

At Paddington I was under the impression that the Elizabeth line was a separate part of the station complex. I would suggest that we end up with 4 Paddington's...
The two Underground stations as they are today.
The "Paddington (NR)" station to mean the existing mainline station. This would not gain the 'Elizabeth line' database flag and would similarly to Liverpool Street (LO/NR) would get a name change to include "not XR).
A new entry for "Paddington XR" to mean only the Elizabeth line platforms. This would have the 'Elizabeth line' flag in the database, but not the 'National Rail' flag.

{Alternatively I just update the generator such that neither Paddington or Liverpool Street will ever come out in a draw. This is the 'head in sand' method of avoiding the problem. }

greatkingrat wrote: ↑12 Jun 2022, 16:20 I think it may actually be best to forget about gatelines and say that if you can get between platforms without leaving the station, it is all one station. So Paddington would just be 1 station, while Canary Wharf would be 3 stations (LU / DLR / EL).

Even though you can get from Moorgate to Liverpool Street without leaving the station, I think they should remain 2 stations as they have different names (same as Bank/Monument).

I would argue that you do leave the main line station to get to the XR station at Paddington - you have to step into the open air to get from one to the other, unless you go down the steps under WHS, then to XR via the Bakerloo!

tractakid wrote: ↑12 Jun 2022, 12:42 Crossrail blurs the waters somewhat about what separate stations count as.

Using Liverpool Street as an example, I propose the following, for an R15 round. This is post-the linking up of Crossrail, meaning no Crossrail services serve the high level platforms.

Any flaws in my thinking?

Even when Liverpool Street has through services from Shenfield to Paddington/Heathrow/Reading, there will still be some Elizabeth Line trains which terminate at Liverpool Street on the high level platforms.

tintin wrote: ↑13 Jun 2022, 22:59

tractakid wrote: ↑12 Jun 2022, 12:42 Crossrail blurs the waters somewhat about what separate stations count as.

Using Liverpool Street as an example, I propose the following, for an R15 round. This is post-the linking up of Crossrail, meaning no Crossrail services serve the high level platforms.

Any flaws in my thinking?

Even when Liverpool Street has through services from Shenfield to Paddington/Heathrow/Reading, there will still be some Elizabeth Line trains which terminate at Liverpool Street on the high level platforms.

That is true, however they will only run in the peaks, so are unlikely to be relevant at the times we are doing challenges.

One thing I've been thinking of attempting is a "Crossrail Challenge" (as nobody seems to have set a time for it yet!).

As things currently stand, would Liverpool Street NR and Liverpool Street XR-only count as separate stations for the purpose of this challenge?

Going forwards, once through running is established, if Paddington NR and Paddington XR-only, and Liverpool Street NR and Liverpool Street-XR only counted as separate stations, presumably for the purpose of a Crossrail Challenge, both would need to be visited even if the NR platforms could only be visited in the peaks, much as Battersea Park has to be visited on an Overground Challenge even though it's an inconvenient time. (Though that said, "same rails" rules would probably apply for visiting Paddington NR and Liverpool Street NR).

With National Rail services behind both barriers now, Liverpool Street is unified as one station, and therefore, you wouldn't have to visit high level platforms to complete the Crossrail challenge.

A2 wrote: ↑12 Jun 2022, 16:54 Once all of the Elizabeth line trains head through the core from November then I think the following:

At Liverpool Street add the 'Elizabeth line' flag to the existing "Liverpool Street (LU)" [low level] entry, but without the 'National Rail' flag in the database and rename this to "Liverpool Street (LU/XR).

This makes no sense when Crossrail IS National Rail, much like London Overground.

If you look at a departure board website for NR services, Crossrail is simply listed alongside all other services for the station, and NR tickets are accepted equally. It's one station.

https://www.brtimes.com/!board?stn=PAD&date=20220628

There's circle like services at two stations at Paddington, why not XR as well? I'd say XR should be part of the Bakerloo/District station at PAD, and Liverpool Street be split in two - LU/XR LL and LO/LE/XR HL