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Well done Phil & Hassan, this is one challenge I haven't really looked into any route planning on. It sounds like a good time and I take your word it can be bettered...

I'm sure it can be beaten, unless we got very lucky with our route! I want somebody to beat it just for the incentive to try it again!

Yes, our time was certainly a very good one, but it was a few minutes off our optimum. Now Hassan's slightly given the game away with Manor House, I can say that we both independently put a bit of time into studying the map for such intricacies. I've also been plotting a new route, because while I'm sure that our exact route could be replicated on another day and improved, there must be other savings by other routes out there. The same can go for if our route was reversed in direction.

As for the waits at stations: it was fortunate we had them as we had two fair delays and a more minor one. However the short waits later in the day when all was running on schedule were slightly aggravating when looked back upon now. Yet I'm also well aware that if we hadn't built these waits into the plan we would have been far slower as any minor delay in arrival time would have meant far longer waits to continue the journey.

Here's to a second bash!

I think this is one I really should have a try at over the summer...

mps247 wrote:Perhaps with a finish in Eastcote instead.

I agree that an Eastcote finish would be better. There are generally high frequency services at that end, and I'd rather start at the Bexley end in order to manage the low frequency service (that might mean planning for a specific train from, say, Lewisham to Elmers End).

If you could also go on to hit a specific Kingston loop train at Wimbledon, I think that would be an efficient way of doing the south London Boroughs (except Southwark).

As you suggested, there is a high degree of redundancy in solving a travelling politician, rather than a travelling salesman problem - that is you don't have to visit a particular station, you can choose an alternative in the same Borough instead.

One bit of fun I had looking at routes for this was to see which Boroughs were easy (route for remaining 32 Boroughs little or no quicker than for all 33), and which were hard (route for remaining 32 much quicker). Newham may be the easiest.

jbom1 wrote:One bit of fun I had looking at routes for this was to see which Boroughs were easy (route for remaining 32 Boroughs little or no quicker than for all 33), and which were hard (route for remaining 32 much quicker). Newham may be the easiest.

I never looked at it that way. If I've understood you correctly, then Bexley is probably the hardest. While planning I tried to find a route where I wouldn't finish in Bexley. However, for an Eastcote start (or any start for that matter), Bexley seemed to be the most sensible place to finish.

Like Phil says, it is quite possible that the reverse of our route might be quicker. He even pointed this out on the day, and I hadn't tried to work our route out backwards as I really wanted a West London start for selfish reasons. For the reasons you stated John, as long as the trains match up, a Bexley start is probably best. It is probably worth looking into.

Although I wasn't successful in finding one, I wonder if there is a faster route that doesn't start or end in Bexley...

Does this make Bexley the new Vauxhall?

mps247 wrote:I wonder if there is a faster route that doesn't start or end in Bexley...

My suggestions of decreasingly good termini

1. Hillingdon (Eastcote)
2. Bexley
3. Enfield/Barnet (Oakleigh Park if New Southgate counts for Enfield, Hadley Wood otherwise)
4. Havering (Romford or Elm Park)
5. Richmond (Hampton Wick)

I note that Barnet seems not to be on the way to anywhere by rail or tube (options seem to be terminus in Barnet/Enfield, double back or bus). Also I found it annoyingly difficult to get between Barking & Dagenham and Redbridge. In the south-west, I lost time by not knowing whether a Malden Manor double back was feasible.

I imagine that most good routes would incorporate much of the stretch between Eastcote and central London via the Piccadilly and District, and also a section of Tramlink.

I've put together a mapping mashup using the Ordnance Survey API and their boundary data, so to clearly identify where boundaries may lie.

It's over at http://ge.pythonmoo.co.uk/maps/osbounds.htm

Boundaries appear and get more detailed as you zoom in.

Note that the permalinks don't work, since the OS have badly monkey-patched their API together from another.... I'm working on fixing it.

Nice work Edgemaster! I had trouble finding a street map with boundaries drawn online - this is very useful for planning possible bus routes!

To answer Al's question - I think Bexley is worse than Vauxhall. While you do have the South West Trains service to get you into Waterloo should you end up in Vauxhall with nowhere to go, the only way out of Bexley is the way you came in! In other words, Greenwich. Doing this any other way is likely to take too much time, so if you don't start or end in Bexley you will have to double-back there. Such a manoeuvre is not so easy when services are as infrequent as they are in that area.

jbom1 wrote:My suggestions of decreasingly good termini

1. Hillingdon (Eastcote)
2. Bexley
3. Enfield/Barnet (Oakleigh Park if New Southgate counts for Enfield, Hadley Wood otherwise)
4. Havering (Romford or Elm Park)
5. Richmond (Hampton Wick)

I note that Barnet seems not to be on the way to anywhere by rail or tube (options seem to be terminus in Barnet/Enfield, double back or bus). Also I found it annoyingly difficult to get between Barking & Dagenham and Redbridge. In the south-west, I lost time by not knowing whether a Malden Manor double back was feasible.

I imagine that most good routes would incorporate much of the stretch between Eastcote and central London via the Piccadilly and District, and also a section of Tramlink.

Hatton Cross might be a good place to start if you were to take the bus to Feltham. In fact, I think there is an express bus to West Croydon station from there, but I am not sure about this.

Yes, getting between Barking & Dagenham and Redbridge was annoying, and I can't help but think that there must be a better way to do it than what we came up with. A route involving the Central line might be an option, as it is a quick way to knock-off 11 boroughs. However, connecting to other lines at either end is a problem - you probably lose more time than you gain.

mps247 wrote:Hatton Cross might be a good place to start if you were to take the bus to Feltham. In fact, I think there is an express bus to West Croydon station from there, but I am not sure about this.

I think it's the X26, it certainly runs through Croydon, Kingston and Sutton and to Heathrow.

Edgemaster wrote:I think it's the X26, it certainly runs through Croydon, Kingston and Sutton and to Heathrow.

Annoyingly, the X26 passes through Hounslow, but does not stop in the Borough.

Equally annoying, the NR line from Romford passes through Barking & Dagenham but does not stop. If only Chadwell Heath was 50 yards further east it would be a perfect start/finish point.

I'll also start by thanking Edgemaster for that fabulous map, I've spent most of the afternoon looking at it try to gleam information from it! It was also most interesting to looking at where our route went well or poorly according to that map, but I'm not telling you my findings! I knew you were into digital mapping from looking at your website, but I must say the map is highly impressive and quite clever to be able to pick up where the boundaries are listed on all those scales of OS maps. However Edgemaster I profess that your last sentence in that post made no sense at all to me!

(As may happen in a certain quiz that's full of such terms you've never heard of, Paxman would say: "Starters for ten, Define monkey-patching.")

Anyhow I'm also going to back up my team mate in saying that Bexley the Borough is worse than Vauxhall the station, at least Vauxhall has many a train North to Waterloo, unlike the three lines through the Borough. But Hassan, you don't have to go through Greenwich, there are a few non Greenwich alternatives, but I agree that non are realistic of they involve doubling back.

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However your map has posed me a question Mr Edgemaster. Namely the "canonical" status of Dr John's original map, and whether it should be the accepted rulebook for the challenge for ever more as well as the issue of stations which straddle more than one Borough.

Here's the orignal quote:

jbom1 wrote:My view on this is as follows ...

(1) Where a station (consisting of all station buildings, track passing through the station and entrances and exits) straddles two or more Boroughs, one shall be allowed to count the stop there as visiting either (any) one of the Boroughs, but one must separately visit the other Borough(s).

So one may choose to count a stop at New Southgate (if we agree that it indeed straddles Barnet and Enfield) as a visit to Barnet, but must then visit Enfield separately. Alternatively, one may choose to count the same stop at New Southgate as a visit to Enfield, but must then visit Barnet separately. One may only count one Borough per station, unless one pays a repeat visit to it.

I would propose to apply three other rules to this challenge.

(2) The map (referred to elsewhere in this thread) should be considered canonical to the extent that any station stop shall count as acceptable if it is shown as part of the relevant Borough on the map. However, one may also count a station as part of a Borough, even if not indicated on the map, if one can authoritatively demonstrate that the map is in error or incomplete. One may only record a visit to one Borough per station.

The map (I don't know its original source) looks like a labour of many hours, but is a little out of date and may contain a handful of errors. Ideally, it should be updated.

If this isn't too difficult, too technically challenging, or a administrative nightmare, would it be feasible for your map Edgemaster to update vis a vis boundary changes? I only ask as it is highly likely that boundaries will change at some point in the future either thanks to a re-organisation of local government or due to physical changes on the ground. While some changes may be minimal, it is also possible for these to effect the challenge, as James the Gill has highlighted! If this was adopted the record could change as different configurations arise, much the same as when the GWR has to change when the number of stations changes. The map could then update itself, or a new version could replace it, say 2009 Version 2, if it was needed this year.

Any views from interested parties on this point would be greatly appreciated, as I think we need to set up something for the rules to reflect future changes before they actually happen, if they happen at all, or have already happened since the Dr John map!

Mitchell&BrownLook wrote:While some changes may be minimal, it is also possible for these to effect the challenge, as JamestheGill has highlighted!

I did? Blimey, when did that happen?